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	<title>Comments for Tuggeranong Community Council Inc.</title>
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	<description>&#34;Working For The Community&#34;</description>
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		<title>Comment on TCC SUBMISSION INTO THE ACT GOVERNMENT REVIEW OF WOOD SMOKE EDUCATION PROGRAMS by Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.tuggcc.com/2010/06/tcc-submission-into-the-act-government-review-of-wood-smoke-education-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-250</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 06:10:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tuggcc.com/?p=465#comment-250</guid>
		<description>Woodheater smoke is a public health issue.  It may be years down the track before symptoms appear (as with cigarette smoke causing emphysema etc.) so people need to continually be reminded that this is something which could well affect them and their children.  

Sooner or later woodheaters need to be phased out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Woodheater smoke is a public health issue.  It may be years down the track before symptoms appear (as with cigarette smoke causing emphysema etc.) so people need to continually be reminded that this is something which could well affect them and their children.  </p>
<p>Sooner or later woodheaters need to be phased out.</p>
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		<title>Comment on TCC SUBMISSION INTO THE ACT GOVERNMENT REVIEW OF WOOD SMOKE EDUCATION PROGRAMS by Steven</title>
		<link>http://www.tuggcc.com/2010/06/tcc-submission-into-the-act-government-review-of-wood-smoke-education-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-244</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 23:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tuggcc.com/?p=465#comment-244</guid>
		<description>People who think the fact they&#039;ve been burning wood for decades makes it ok make me laugh. It says more about how much misery they&#039;ve caused to patient neighbours.

And don&#039;t believe those adds retailers have been running about how &#039;stringent&#039; our heater standards are. Australian wood heaters are allowed to put out over 150% more pollution than the ones in NZ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People who think the fact they&#8217;ve been burning wood for decades makes it ok make me laugh. It says more about how much misery they&#8217;ve caused to patient neighbours.</p>
<p>And don&#8217;t believe those adds retailers have been running about how &#8216;stringent&#8217; our heater standards are. Australian wood heaters are allowed to put out over 150% more pollution than the ones in NZ.</p>
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		<title>Comment on TCC SUBMISSION INTO THE ACT GOVERNMENT REVIEW OF WOOD SMOKE EDUCATION PROGRAMS by Dr Dorothy L Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.tuggcc.com/2010/06/tcc-submission-into-the-act-government-review-of-wood-smoke-education-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-242</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Dorothy L Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 08:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tuggcc.com/?p=465#comment-242</guid>
		<description>Anyone who cares about sustainability should read the advice of the Institute for Governance &amp; Sustainable Development (www.igsd.org) “With abrupt climate change approaching faster than predicted according to scientists, fast-action mitigation strategies (reducing black carbon, methane, and tropospheric ozone) are essential in order to avoid passing the tipping points.” 

Enclosed wood heaters emit substantial quantities of methane, which, over the next 20 years, will cause 72 times as much global warming as the same amount of carbon dioxide.  People who care about climate change will leave the wood in the forest until we have the infrastructure to burn it cleanly, e.g. pellet heaters, or local electricity generation to replace unsustainable coal-fired power.  This is a far more climate-friendly option than using current wood heaters, which will cause 10 times as much global warming as any other form of heating (over the next 20 years from their methane, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide emissions).

For a minority of people who collect their own firewood, wood heating might seem cheaper.  But it can lead to health problems including increased risk of colds and flu, middle ear infections, heart attacks and respiratory diseases – see woodsmoke.3sc.net/woodsmoke-health-costs for details and references.

The Australian Lung Foundation (ALF) recommends: “use alternative methods (instead of wood heaters) for climate control, including insulating and improving the energy efficiency of homes, flued gas and electric heaters and energy efficient house design” http://www.lungfoundation.com.au/content/view/99/104/ 

The American Lung Association &quot;strongly recommends using cleaner, less toxic sources of heat. Converting a wood-burning fireplace or stove to use either natural gas or propane will eliminate exposure to the dangerous toxins wood burning generates including dioxin, arsenic and formaldehyde” see http://www.lungusa.org/press-room/press-releases/cleaner-alternatives-for-winter-heat.html

People who currently use wood heating should seriously consider their own health, that of their neighbours and not use wood heating if they have affordable non-polluting alternatives.  On top of the health benefits, switching to non-polluting heating could help avoid the tipping points that might lead to catastrophic climate change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone who cares about sustainability should read the advice of the Institute for Governance &amp; Sustainable Development (www.igsd.org) “With abrupt climate change approaching faster than predicted according to scientists, fast-action mitigation strategies (reducing black carbon, methane, and tropospheric ozone) are essential in order to avoid passing the tipping points.” </p>
<p>Enclosed wood heaters emit substantial quantities of methane, which, over the next 20 years, will cause 72 times as much global warming as the same amount of carbon dioxide.  People who care about climate change will leave the wood in the forest until we have the infrastructure to burn it cleanly, e.g. pellet heaters, or local electricity generation to replace unsustainable coal-fired power.  This is a far more climate-friendly option than using current wood heaters, which will cause 10 times as much global warming as any other form of heating (over the next 20 years from their methane, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide emissions).</p>
<p>For a minority of people who collect their own firewood, wood heating might seem cheaper.  But it can lead to health problems including increased risk of colds and flu, middle ear infections, heart attacks and respiratory diseases – see woodsmoke.3sc.net/woodsmoke-health-costs for details and references.</p>
<p>The Australian Lung Foundation (ALF) recommends: “use alternative methods (instead of wood heaters) for climate control, including insulating and improving the energy efficiency of homes, flued gas and electric heaters and energy efficient house design” <a href="http://www.lungfoundation.com.au/content/view/99/104/" rel="nofollow">http://www.lungfoundation.com.au/content/view/99/104/</a> </p>
<p>The American Lung Association &#8220;strongly recommends using cleaner, less toxic sources of heat. Converting a wood-burning fireplace or stove to use either natural gas or propane will eliminate exposure to the dangerous toxins wood burning generates including dioxin, arsenic and formaldehyde” see <a href="http://www.lungusa.org/press-room/press-releases/cleaner-alternatives-for-winter-heat.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.lungusa.org/press-room/press-releases/cleaner-alternatives-for-winter-heat.html</a></p>
<p>People who currently use wood heating should seriously consider their own health, that of their neighbours and not use wood heating if they have affordable non-polluting alternatives.  On top of the health benefits, switching to non-polluting heating could help avoid the tipping points that might lead to catastrophic climate change.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Talking Tuggeranong &#8211; An Issues Document by Nick Tsoulias</title>
		<link>http://www.tuggcc.com/2010/03/talking-tuggeranong-an-issues-document/comment-page-1/#comment-241</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Tsoulias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 04:49:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tuggcc.com/?p=322#comment-241</guid>
		<description>Dear Darryl.
 
I have recently met with the Calwell Club, and Tuggeranong Homestead in my capacity as a representative of the local area and have deliberated on a further push for an identical Mawson park and Ride to be considered located between Johnson Drive Calwell and Tharwa Drive. .
 
The argument for a park and ride, in our opinion would;
Provide support to TSZ1 - Transport Zone Objectives of the Australian Capital Territory and thus;
 
a) Make provision for a transport network that can provide for the efficient, safe and
convenient movement of people and goods (including outlying traffic coming from Lanyon suburbs)

b) Ensure that major roads and transport infrastructure are developed in a comprehensive
manner, including the provision of appropriate landscaping, street furniture and lighting,
traffic control devices, and noise attenuation measures

c) Make provision for public transport
By making these provisions we are encouraging a site for outbound traffic migrating from Banks, Condor, Gordon, Theodore, calwell, Richardson, Bonython and Isabella Plains.
 
The arguments for outbound park and ride makes more sense as opposed to a location inbound, as we want to avoid encouraging any further inbound congestion.
The location would make use of one of the quieter roads in Tuggeranong as opposed to using more frequented busier arterial roads. This would introduce á system and supportive measures to counter congestion on Erindale Drive and its local bottlenecks.
 
A Park and Ride at Calwell, on located on Johnson Drive would support the local domestic road use as well as interstate reliant bus and coach passengers, coming in from as far as Michelago, Bredbo, Royalla.
 
Our local Tourism would benefit as a result of a park and ride at Calwell (opposite Tuggeranong homestead) and the local Dean Bus lines services have expressed ongoing support for the only Tuggeranong -snow-coast bound bus stop. 
 
To note, two coaches leave each day from Jolimont Centre then Calwell Shops. The idea of larger integrated parking offsets to be located at a park and ride as opposed to just a stop at Calwell Shops would make more use of the park and ride and bring further tourist to Tuggeranong. This would also offset congestion upon the completion of the Calwell High School Tuggeranong performing arts centre.
 
The transport zoning land currently considered by the proponents for consideration on the Johnson Drive, is the land next to the Calwell Ambulance station known marked as transport zoning.



The above would only make better use of our public roads and public transport system.



ACT Federal Labor candidate for the seat of Canberra has set up an office at Calwell Shops. I will be hoping to meet with her also and also learn more about any federal funding available for black spots for the area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Darryl.</p>
<p>I have recently met with the Calwell Club, and Tuggeranong Homestead in my capacity as a representative of the local area and have deliberated on a further push for an identical Mawson park and Ride to be considered located between Johnson Drive Calwell and Tharwa Drive. .</p>
<p>The argument for a park and ride, in our opinion would;<br />
Provide support to TSZ1 &#8211; Transport Zone Objectives of the Australian Capital Territory and thus;</p>
<p>a) Make provision for a transport network that can provide for the efficient, safe and<br />
convenient movement of people and goods (including outlying traffic coming from Lanyon suburbs)</p>
<p>b) Ensure that major roads and transport infrastructure are developed in a comprehensive<br />
manner, including the provision of appropriate landscaping, street furniture and lighting,<br />
traffic control devices, and noise attenuation measures</p>
<p>c) Make provision for public transport<br />
By making these provisions we are encouraging a site for outbound traffic migrating from Banks, Condor, Gordon, Theodore, calwell, Richardson, Bonython and Isabella Plains.</p>
<p>The arguments for outbound park and ride makes more sense as opposed to a location inbound, as we want to avoid encouraging any further inbound congestion.<br />
The location would make use of one of the quieter roads in Tuggeranong as opposed to using more frequented busier arterial roads. This would introduce á system and supportive measures to counter congestion on Erindale Drive and its local bottlenecks.</p>
<p>A Park and Ride at Calwell, on located on Johnson Drive would support the local domestic road use as well as interstate reliant bus and coach passengers, coming in from as far as Michelago, Bredbo, Royalla.</p>
<p>Our local Tourism would benefit as a result of a park and ride at Calwell (opposite Tuggeranong homestead) and the local Dean Bus lines services have expressed ongoing support for the only Tuggeranong -snow-coast bound bus stop. </p>
<p>To note, two coaches leave each day from Jolimont Centre then Calwell Shops. The idea of larger integrated parking offsets to be located at a park and ride as opposed to just a stop at Calwell Shops would make more use of the park and ride and bring further tourist to Tuggeranong. This would also offset congestion upon the completion of the Calwell High School Tuggeranong performing arts centre.</p>
<p>The transport zoning land currently considered by the proponents for consideration on the Johnson Drive, is the land next to the Calwell Ambulance station known marked as transport zoning.</p>
<p>The above would only make better use of our public roads and public transport system.</p>
<p>ACT Federal Labor candidate for the seat of Canberra has set up an office at Calwell Shops. I will be hoping to meet with her also and also learn more about any federal funding available for black spots for the area.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Talking Tuggeranong &#8211; An Issues Document by Nick Tsoulias</title>
		<link>http://www.tuggcc.com/2010/03/talking-tuggeranong-an-issues-document/comment-page-1/#comment-240</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Tsoulias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 04:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tuggcc.com/?p=322#comment-240</guid>
		<description>Dear Darryl,

Below is a link to the LDA
http://www.lda.act.gov.au/?/community/block_5_section_790_calwell

This link takes you to the LDA site with regards to information on block % section 790 Calwell.

The Community mid last year held a small meeting at the Calwell Club and were not very favourable to the provisions made and plans to limit the criteria for development on this site.
The Community is represented by the St Mary in the Valley Parish for South Tuggeranong, Calwell SHops and its traders, Neigbourhood Watch and local residents.

The community feels now that this site has been withdrawn from sale for the time being, and that the ACT Government now consider this site for affordable housing, rather than aged care facility. 

Second an open and transparent meeting at the Tuggeranong Community Council regarding the future of this site be welcomed by the TCC for a discussion with guest speakers from the LDA and ACTPLA in order to elevate views and form a sloution on what the community needs are for this site.

Third. As this site has now been taken off the auction agenda, what is exactly happening with this site, and could the Chief Minister please guide us on the future of this site.

Block 5 Section 790 Calwell (Were Street)
Proposal to release for sale Block 5 Section 790 Calwell for the purposes of an aged care facility.

Block 5 Section 790 Calwell has an area of approximately 21,000m2 and has been zoned for one or more of the following uses:

Residential Care Accommodation
Retirement Complex
Supportive Housing

An information notice of the impending site release was sent out on 30 September 2009 to adjoining residents and traders. As a result a local neighbourhood watch meeting was attended by representatives of the LDA on 15 October 2009 at the Calwell Club. A number of issues were discussed on the night, with residents being presented with an overview of the site and associated planning studies pertaining to the release of the site for an aged care facility.

 

Documentation
Site Investigation Report by GHD
Traffic Impact Assessment
Aerial view of the proposed site
Lease and Prescribed Conditions. These can be accessed through the ACTPLA website at www.actpla.act.gov.au


I</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Darryl,</p>
<p>Below is a link to the LDA<br />
<a href="http://www.lda.act.gov.au/?/community/block_5_section_790_calwell" rel="nofollow">http://www.lda.act.gov.au/?/community/block_5_section_790_calwell</a></p>
<p>This link takes you to the LDA site with regards to information on block % section 790 Calwell.</p>
<p>The Community mid last year held a small meeting at the Calwell Club and were not very favourable to the provisions made and plans to limit the criteria for development on this site.<br />
The Community is represented by the St Mary in the Valley Parish for South Tuggeranong, Calwell SHops and its traders, Neigbourhood Watch and local residents.</p>
<p>The community feels now that this site has been withdrawn from sale for the time being, and that the ACT Government now consider this site for affordable housing, rather than aged care facility. </p>
<p>Second an open and transparent meeting at the Tuggeranong Community Council regarding the future of this site be welcomed by the TCC for a discussion with guest speakers from the LDA and ACTPLA in order to elevate views and form a sloution on what the community needs are for this site.</p>
<p>Third. As this site has now been taken off the auction agenda, what is exactly happening with this site, and could the Chief Minister please guide us on the future of this site.</p>
<p>Block 5 Section 790 Calwell (Were Street)<br />
Proposal to release for sale Block 5 Section 790 Calwell for the purposes of an aged care facility.</p>
<p>Block 5 Section 790 Calwell has an area of approximately 21,000m2 and has been zoned for one or more of the following uses:</p>
<p>Residential Care Accommodation<br />
Retirement Complex<br />
Supportive Housing</p>
<p>An information notice of the impending site release was sent out on 30 September 2009 to adjoining residents and traders. As a result a local neighbourhood watch meeting was attended by representatives of the LDA on 15 October 2009 at the Calwell Club. A number of issues were discussed on the night, with residents being presented with an overview of the site and associated planning studies pertaining to the release of the site for an aged care facility.</p>
<p>Documentation<br />
Site Investigation Report by GHD<br />
Traffic Impact Assessment<br />
Aerial view of the proposed site<br />
Lease and Prescribed Conditions. These can be accessed through the ACTPLA website at <a href="http://www.actpla.act.gov.au" rel="nofollow">http://www.actpla.act.gov.au</a></p>
<p>I</p>
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		<title>Comment on TCC SUBMISSION INTO THE ACT GOVERNMENT REVIEW OF WOOD SMOKE EDUCATION PROGRAMS by Douglas</title>
		<link>http://www.tuggcc.com/2010/06/tcc-submission-into-the-act-government-review-of-wood-smoke-education-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-236</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 06:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tuggcc.com/?p=465#comment-236</guid>
		<description>Concur with Simon. We grew up in homes that used wood stoves and fires. I just wonder where the free wood comes from nowadays, it was available when we were younger but today?  I can only assume you may have your own property where you grow your own trees for your fires? If you are collecting from the bush then I think you may also be aware of the destruction of flora and fauna that you are causing due to the removal of that old dry wood. I do understand coming from an income that does not permit a sudden change but if all were prepared to work to a similar outcome (no wood fires) in the distant future then the shock does not come as a surprise. We currently derive out heat from electricity that is powered by solar panels. We saved for over 15 years to collect the money to do so. Patient by all on this subject, working to the same end, is the best way to go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Concur with Simon. We grew up in homes that used wood stoves and fires. I just wonder where the free wood comes from nowadays, it was available when we were younger but today?  I can only assume you may have your own property where you grow your own trees for your fires? If you are collecting from the bush then I think you may also be aware of the destruction of flora and fauna that you are causing due to the removal of that old dry wood. I do understand coming from an income that does not permit a sudden change but if all were prepared to work to a similar outcome (no wood fires) in the distant future then the shock does not come as a surprise. We currently derive out heat from electricity that is powered by solar panels. We saved for over 15 years to collect the money to do so. Patient by all on this subject, working to the same end, is the best way to go.</p>
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		<title>Comment on TCC SUBMISSION INTO THE ACT GOVERNMENT REVIEW OF WOOD SMOKE EDUCATION PROGRAMS by patricia westerberg</title>
		<link>http://www.tuggcc.com/2010/06/tcc-submission-into-the-act-government-review-of-wood-smoke-education-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-234</link>
		<dc:creator>patricia westerberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 06:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tuggcc.com/?p=465#comment-234</guid>
		<description>I live in Conder and have emphysema and find that the wood fires are really affecting me
and it makes it hard to breathe.
If there is any way that my opinion is of any help that would be great</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live in Conder and have emphysema and find that the wood fires are really affecting me<br />
and it makes it hard to breathe.<br />
If there is any way that my opinion is of any help that would be great</p>
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		<title>Comment on TCC SUBMISSION INTO THE ACT GOVERNMENT REVIEW OF WOOD SMOKE EDUCATION PROGRAMS by Louis du Plessis</title>
		<link>http://www.tuggcc.com/2010/06/tcc-submission-into-the-act-government-review-of-wood-smoke-education-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-232</link>
		<dc:creator>Louis du Plessis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tuggcc.com/?p=465#comment-232</guid>
		<description>Indigent users of wood heaters are eventually compelled by old age to give them up, because old people cannot chop firewood and it costs too much to hire a handyman to do it. The wood has to be chopped whether collected or bought. Able-bodied people mostly have enough income to afford the convenience of gas or electric heating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indigent users of wood heaters are eventually compelled by old age to give them up, because old people cannot chop firewood and it costs too much to hire a handyman to do it. The wood has to be chopped whether collected or bought. Able-bodied people mostly have enough income to afford the convenience of gas or electric heating.</p>
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		<title>Comment on TCC SUBMISSION INTO THE ACT GOVERNMENT REVIEW OF WOOD SMOKE EDUCATION PROGRAMS by Philip Purcell</title>
		<link>http://www.tuggcc.com/2010/06/tcc-submission-into-the-act-government-review-of-wood-smoke-education-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-231</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Purcell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 00:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tuggcc.com/?p=465#comment-231</guid>
		<description>The Australian Lung Foundation has this to say: &quot;The harmful effects of wood smoke appear similar to those of environmental tobacco smoke (ETS). We know there is no safe level of exposure to this.  Individuals can choose not to smoke and can usually avoid ETS.  However, a resident of a valley filled with wood smoke cannot easily avoid breathing in the polluted air.&quot;

If people are in genuine financial stress then I am sure then there is a strong case for Govt assistance to meet their ACTEW bills - has anyone taken this issue to the ACT Govt?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Australian Lung Foundation has this to say: &#8220;The harmful effects of wood smoke appear similar to those of environmental tobacco smoke (ETS). We know there is no safe level of exposure to this.  Individuals can choose not to smoke and can usually avoid ETS.  However, a resident of a valley filled with wood smoke cannot easily avoid breathing in the polluted air.&#8221;</p>
<p>If people are in genuine financial stress then I am sure then there is a strong case for Govt assistance to meet their ACTEW bills &#8211; has anyone taken this issue to the ACT Govt?</p>
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		<title>Comment on TCC SUBMISSION INTO THE ACT GOVERNMENT REVIEW OF WOOD SMOKE EDUCATION PROGRAMS by Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.tuggcc.com/2010/06/tcc-submission-into-the-act-government-review-of-wood-smoke-education-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-230</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 22:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tuggcc.com/?p=465#comment-230</guid>
		<description>I understand that people who have heaters want to keep them but the reason they appear cheap is that others bear the pollution cost. If polluters had to pay for this, as they should, the price would be prohibitive. 

Nor do people who have wood heaters notice the pollution because whichever way the wind blows it blows away from them. If there&#039;s a wind, the low pressure zone on the sheltered side of their houses drags the smoke down into their neighbours&#039; yards and windows. If there&#039;s no wind and no temperature inversion, it rises until it cools and falls, settling into valleys and the lungs of others where it causes and aggravates lung diseases before entering the blood and doing more harm. 

Every polluter has an average of three immediate neighbours and they are surrounded by another ring of near neighbours who also suffer much. On these numbers alone smoke polluters are are small minority. Throw in the rest of the community and it&#039;s a no brainer. This unhealthy practice in built up areas must stop!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand that people who have heaters want to keep them but the reason they appear cheap is that others bear the pollution cost. If polluters had to pay for this, as they should, the price would be prohibitive. </p>
<p>Nor do people who have wood heaters notice the pollution because whichever way the wind blows it blows away from them. If there&#8217;s a wind, the low pressure zone on the sheltered side of their houses drags the smoke down into their neighbours&#8217; yards and windows. If there&#8217;s no wind and no temperature inversion, it rises until it cools and falls, settling into valleys and the lungs of others where it causes and aggravates lung diseases before entering the blood and doing more harm. </p>
<p>Every polluter has an average of three immediate neighbours and they are surrounded by another ring of near neighbours who also suffer much. On these numbers alone smoke polluters are are small minority. Throw in the rest of the community and it&#8217;s a no brainer. This unhealthy practice in built up areas must stop!</p>
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